"City of the Future" is a podcast that explores ideas and innovations that could transform cities, and this season is all about the ideas and innovations that could lead to more equitable development. In this episode, hosts Eric Jaffe and Vanessa Quirk interview Phil Armstrong, executive director of Greenwood Rising Black Wall Street History Center, Trey Thaxton, entrepreneur and owner of the Tulsa-based Goldmill Co. and Greenwood Ave., Landon Taylor, co-founder of Legacy First Partners, Victor MacFarlane, founder and CEO of MacFarlane Partners, Randy Wiggins, founding managing director of Build in Tulsa, and Brian Brackeen, general partner of Lightship Capital.
Vanessa Quirk: So it is a beautiful sunny day in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I’m kind of on the periphery of the Greenwood historic district.
Vanessa Quirk: I had traveled to Tulsa to learn about an innovation ecosystem centered around Black entrepreneurship there. But I knew that you can’t explore the future in Tulsa without first acknowledging the past.
Vanessa Quirk: As you’re walking, the sidewalks are pretty wide over here, and every now and then, you know, when you look down, and you see these little plaques that just let you know, ‘Hey, something was here before.’
Vanessa Quirk: I was familiar with the history of Greenwood, which in the early 1900s was a vibrant, well-to-do Black neighborhood with shops, restaurants, grocery stores, hotels, barbershops, and offices. Greenwood even had its own school system, bank, and hospital. But I was sure there was still a lot I *didn’t *know. So I headed to Greenwood Rising Black Wall Street History Center to learn more from Phil Armstrong, the executive director.
Phil Armstrong: Hi Vanessa. Great to meet you! Welcome to Greenwood Rising. First time in Tulsa?
Vanessa Quirk: Phil met me in the lobby of the history center’s brand new building and graciously offered to take me on tour through the museum. Phil told me that Black Wall Street, as it was called, would never have generated the wealth it did if it weren’t because the African Americans who lived there were landowners.
Phil Armstrong: So you own land in 1866 in Oklahoma, you got power and money. And then the oil and gas discovery. And everybody became millionaires overnight.
Vanessa Quirk: When Greenwood was growing, racial tensions in the U.S. were heightening. During the so-called red summer of 1919, white mobs looted and destroyed dozens of Black communities across the country. In Oklahoma, the Ku Klux Klan grew quickly, attracting poor Whites who felt resentful toward the wealthy, thriving Black community in Greenwood. And on May 30, 1921, when a young Black man named Dick Rowland was accused of assaulting a white woman in an elevator, the racial animosities simmering under the surface in Tulsa exploded. Hundreds were killed, a thousand homes destroyed, and millions were lost in property damage. Today, thanks to the works of historians and media like, The Watchmen and HBO’s Lovecraft Country, more and more people know what happened that day. But fewer people realize what happened next.
Phil Armstrong: By 1922, they started rebuilding the first building back on Greenwood and Archer. Within five years, by 1926, 80% to 90% of Greenwood was rebuilt, which is remarkable.
Vanessa Quirk: Over the decades, Greenwood once again became a thriving community. But then, in the 1960s, large swathes of the community were destroyed again. This time, by urban renewal and a highway. Phil walked me to an exhibit at the front of the museum that consists of a series of viewports hung along the wall. Each viewport shows a photograph of a street or area in Greenwood before urban renewal; then it shifts, turning into the same scene today. And because Tulsa is kind of a small town, Phil then called up the viewports’ creator, Trey Thaxton, a CEO and entrepreneur in Tulsa, to tell me more.
Phil Armstrong: And I want to introduce you to the gentleman that I told you about. He’s the man in my book.
Vanessa Quirk: I’m Vanessa.
Trey Thaxton: Nice to meet you, Vanessa.
Vanessa Quirk: I asked Trey if any of the images had stuck with him over time. And he walked me to one with a little girl in an alley, taken around the 1940s.
Trey Thaxton: I believe It’s this one right here. A young girl looking right at the camera, just with a cafe behind her. She’s leaning up against the building, and just showing that life and how this trolley way was going straight through Greenwood, who dropped people off at different restaurants, clubs, and businesses. You can see that there was actual life here. And then fast-forwarding to the 2021 photo and there’s a dumpster and a fence going through it, there’s a highway cutting right over where the train tracks used to be. It gives you a real sense that this just decimated the life that was here. It really divided North Tulsa, not just North and South Tulsa, but it divided North Tulsa as well, and cut off people from what was there before and the things they were used to and their resources. So there’s lasting damage from that happening that still hasn’t been addressed yet.
Vanessa Quirk: Phil explained that the highway was the last straw in Greenwood. After that, many African Americans left.
Phil Armstrong: People who knew what was here before, how they rebuilt it — and then here they go and they destroy it again. And so it created this feeling of desperation. And so from the 1960s, the 70s, the 80s, and even into the early 90s, there was just a drain of Black talent, students who grew up in Oklahoma and all that their grandparents and parents instilled in them is: get an education and then get out of here.
Vanessa Quirk: But over the last 20 years, things have started to change in Tulsa. Rebuilding and development have returned. Entrepreneurs and business folks are also coming back. Phil describes it as the third rising of Greenwood. Trey has noticed it too. It’s part of the reason why, after school, he decided to stay in Tulsa, rather than leave.
Trey Thaxton: I played basketball growing up and, you know, playing pickup, you might lose a game, you can either run it back or pick up a new squad. I like to run it back. So for me, I feel like if I’m here and playing it here for the reason that I can be part of that change moving forward.
Vanessa Quirk: Trey is part of a cadre of Black entrepreneurs forming a new innovation ecosystem in Tulsa. One that is very intentionally trying to center Black creativity and prosperity from the start.
Trey Thaxton: I think we are on the precipice of being able to kinda change and be at the forefront of what we want the future of Tulsa to look like.
Eric Jaffe: Welcome to City of the Future, a podcast from Sidewalk Labs. Each episode, we explore the ideas and innovations that can transform cities. We’re your hosts, I’m Eric Jaffe.
Vanessa Quirk: And I’m Vanessa Quirk. And in this episode, we’re talking about how a new generation of innovation ecosystems could not only spur economic growth but offset some of the urban development approaches that have left African Americans, in particular, behind.
Eric Jaffe: These ecosystems could revitalize underserved neighborhoods — and distribute the benefits of economic growth and prosperity more equitably for all.
Vanessa Quirk: Ok, so we’ve been throwing out this term “innovation ecosystems” as if everyone knows what that means. But not everyone does. So, Eric, you’ve written a lot on this topic: would you mind telling the good listeners what the heck an innovation ecosystem is?
Eric Jaffe: Sure. Innovation ecosystems are places where companies and anchor institutions — things like universities or big research centers — cluster and connect with start-ups, incubators, and smaller accelerators. These can be tech ecosystems. They can be biomedical ecosystems. Whatever the focus is, no matter the type, the idea is the same: by being so close to one another, these different parts of the economy can more easily collaborate and connect and share information ideas with each other.
Vanessa Quirk: And probably attract a lot of talent and resources — and therefore maximize their potential for growth and innovation?
Eric Jaffe: Right. As technology has become core to our economy in the past few decades, you’ve seen big coastal cities like Boston, San Francisco, and Seattle become big tech innovation hubs. To the point where they’ve created this kind of gravitational pull, attracting more and more talented workers, startups, and investment capital from across the country and the world every year. Often this talent gets pulled away from smaller cities in the heartland, places like Tulsa.
Vanessa Quirk: And while I’m sure this has had negative effects on smaller cities in the heartland, I’d imagine it had positive effects for the bigger coastal cities. Like you get talent and resources, you also get new restaurants, apartment buildings, and other amenities.
Eric Jaffe: That’s exactly right. You get a whole supporting culture and local economy around these innovation ecosystems.
Vanessa Quirk: But, despite all the growth these tech-based innovation ecosystems have spurred, the resources and the capital haven’t been shared equitably, especially across racial lines. I mean, just think about the fact that of all the venture capital raised for tech in 2020, Black founders received only 0.6% of it.
Eric Jaffe: Not only that, but as we’ve seen in these big coastal cities — this new wealth has actually created new challenges for people of color and lower-income groups.
Eric Jaffe: So if you take San Francisco, for example. The creation of housing hasn’t kept up with the influx of people. That’s caused rents and housing prices to skyrocket, which prices out many folks who either were in the city before or who are trying to move to the city to take advantage of the job opportunities there. These are groups of people that are essential to making a city work: teachers, nurses, police, and firefighters. They can’t afford to live there anymore.
Vanessa Quirk: And then add on to that the complication that as San Francisco has gotten more unaffordable, people have left the urban core for suburbia, and are now commuting, potentially, hours in their cars, losing precious time and emitting carbon and pollution in the process.
Eric Jaffe: That’s exactly right! So, we can see that, at least with San Francisco, there are certainly pros and cons to building an innovation ecosystem.
Vanessa Quirk: But there’s a global trend happening now to intentionally plan innovation ecosystems in a way that, yes, still brings the advantages of innovation and jobs, but that attempts to circumvent the inequities that have resulted from them in the past.
Eric Jaffe: And that’s a big deal. By creating walkable, mixed-use innovation ecosystems in neighborhoods that might have experienced historic disinvestment or unemployment, we can create opportunities for folks who live in these areas, so they can not only stay in their communities but generate wealth over time.
Vanessa Quirk: Exactly. And to learn more about these innovation ecosystems 2.0, if you will, I actually went to visit one that’s emerging right at innovation ground zero.
Landon Taylor: So I used to live right there at 847. And here in the back, we learned how to play baseball. We learned how to play football. This is where the first, you know, kiss, uhh, with a girl. This is where the first fight, you know, everything happened, right here in the back. And it was a community where sometimes when you come home from school, you do something wrong, and you get a whooping by Mrs. Johnson here and Mrs. Smith here. Your parents already knew by the time, and everyone took care of each other.
Vanessa Quirk: That’s Landon Taylor, the co-founder of Legacy First Partners, a management consulting company that takes on projects with the potential to effect positive change in the world. I met Landon at his former home, Freedom West, a co-op housing complex made up of cute, 1970s-era low-rise apartment buildings with maroon-colored balconies. The homes are located in the historically Black Fillmore District, just a few blocks from San Francisco’s City Hall. Landon’s family lived in the Fillmore in the 40s, when redlining made it one of the only neighborhoods available to African Americans. But then, in the 1950s, just like in Tulsa, an urban renewal plan destroyed much of the neighborhood, displacing tens of thousands of people and over 800 businesses.
Landon Taylor: My aunt Toogie had one of those businesses that they said, “Look, we’re going to make this place better, I promise you, you’ll be able to come back.” That promise was not kept.
Vanessa Quirk: But in the 60s, a local pastor at Bethel AME church, J. Austel Hall, came up with an idea to help African Americans return to this neighborhood by creating a co-operative housing complex. It would create affordable housing and generate economic empowerment by giving folks a chance to own a share in the complex. In 1973, Freedom West opened its doors. And in 1976, Landon’s family moved in.
Landon Taylor: And despite going on around it, there was a lot of crime and violence happening around us; in this community, it was a safe Haven. And I think a lot you know to the success that I was able to enjoy because of the foundation of where I was here. I was able to go to a really great school, Lowell High School, you know, across the city. I wouldn’t be able to do that if I didn’t have an affordable place to live. And so I was that guy who, fortunately, got some success, moved away, and hadn’t talked to the board or members for a long, long time.
Vanessa Quirk: Landon was living far away from Freedom West, when one day, he got a call.
Landon Taylor: And my childhood friend, Richard saying, “Can you come? We are about to lose our property.” So I, of course, next week, I was on a plane, flew up, sat with them, and listened to everything that was going on.
Vanessa Quirk: In those conversations, Landon learned that Freedom West had been struggling for years. From the beginning, HUD and the City had not provided them the capital or training necessary to keep up with building maintenance. Their finances were getting grimmer by the year. And, all the while, the real estate value of the land was skyrocketing. From the late 1990s, and going into the early 2000s, tech companies came to San Francisco and changed the real estate dynamics. The neighborhood next to Freedom West, called Hayes Valley, changed almost beyond recognition.
Landon Taylor: It’s predominantly all Caucasian and a condo there is, you know, a million bucks, one-bedroom, I mean, minimum.
Vanessa Quirk: While tech workers benefited from the transformation, African Americans and other long-term residents were getting displaced, and not just in Hayes Valley but throughout the city. Landon and the rest of the community at Freedom West did not want to be next. They knew they needed a re-development plan to preserve what they had and create a more sustainable future.
Landon Taylor: Those guiding principles became this: Number one, the developer has to deliver 382 brand new units at no additional monthly housing costs to the residents, despite a modest 3% annual increase. Number two, a 40-year economic self-sustainability model and plan that includes additional sources of income. And then number three, unlikely what happened with urban renewal, the community must have input in the design of the overall community and development plan.
Vanessa Quirk: That’s when Landon called Victor MacFarlane, founder, and CEO of MacFarlane Partners, a developer with decades of experience. He invited him to come to sit in on one of their eight-hour-long community sessions.
Victor MacFarlane: There was a lot of distress they’ve been taken advantage of. And you know, they didn’t know me from Adam. They knew — luckily I was being introduced by someone who was raised here that they had a lot of faith and trust in. But I mean, I think the key is what we committed to upfront was transparency, you know?
Vanessa Quirk: Like Landon, Victor had come from humble beginnings to achieve great professional success. And he believed in this project and why it mattered.
Vanessa Quirk: So, Victor committed to the guiding principles and came up with a plan to preserve the co-op housing and redevelop Freedom West’s 10 acres with commercial and retail spaces and market-rate housing to generate income for the community. And at the heart of the plan is an innovation center.
Landon Taylor: A STEM-focused innovation center that allows the residents to have access to job training, entrepreneurship training, and access to capital to enable them to participate in the 21st-century economy. Because that now allows them to plug in and address the wealth and income gap, and now you’ve got this thriving, overall community.
Vanessa Quirk: Because San Francisco is a well-established innovation ecosystem, there’s no shortage of companies, start-ups, and business accelerators that Landon can tap into. In fact, as we speak, he’s meeting with companies who want to be a part of Freedom West 2.0.
Landon Taylor: A lot of the companies we’ve talked to the tech companies who said, you know, we’d love to hire African Americans. We’d love to hire Latinos or women. We just can’t find the talent. We’re going to strip away that excuse. Instead of there being tension or conflict between the city and tech, we think we could be a starting point of pulling people together and saying, “Let’s have the community participate. And let’s have industry participate in the community the way they say they would like to but haven’t figured out the right model.”
Eric Jaffe: So, through this innovation center, residents will be connected to the job opportunities generated by the companies and businesses that move into the neighborhood!
Vanessa Quirk: Right, by physically co-locating residents with tech companies and funders, they’re hoping to create a more equitable innovation ecosystem right in the Fillmore District.
Landon Taylor: One of the things that we heard from one of the board members, he said, “I want my daughter who’s seven years old. I want her to be sitting at the innovation center at a little table. And so that she’s working on her project, she turns to her friend, whose dad is you know the CEO, runs Salesforce, says, ‘Oh, I like that project. Why don’t you come into my house? Let’s do some rapid prototyping on it.’ And then the dad says, ‘No, come on here. Let’s fund it!’” Because that’s what happens every day, no, let’s be real, that’s what happens every day for you know the Stanford student, that’s not what happens in this community. So that’s what I would say about what needs to be done differently. Don’t just build a co-op that’s segregated. Let’s have this complete integrated model that brings public-private together, and that creates an engine that is sustainable for the future.
Vanessa Quirk: That integration isn’t the only thing that’s different about this project. Victor has structured the development deal so that as the neighborhood thrives and generates money for him and his development company, the residents of Freedom West will benefit as well.
Landon Taylor: This nonprofit co-op will participate in the profits that are generated by the for-profit developer in the market rate component. So usually, it’s this big fight about, “Oh, I don’t want the developer. No, no, no. We want the developer to make as much money as possible.” Because they get to participate, I would like to be so bold to say what we are doing for this community is to put them in the driver’s seat to participate in real estate development, in the way that usually only wealthy white developers usually do or landowners have.
Eric Jaffe: This is a potentially transformative way to approach development. And like some of the models that we talked about in our first two episodes of this season, it’s yet another innovation that aligns developers with community members, giving both sides an opportunity to benefit from the wealth that new development generates.
Vanessa Quirk: Absolutely. And I have to admit; it’s not without risk for Victor and his company, right? This is part of the reason why he and Landon are currently appealing to the City, so they can help make the financing pencil out in the long run.
Eric Jaffe: It makes me wonder, is Victor unique here? Would other developers be willing to go this far in working with the community?
Vanessa Quirk: Well, I actually asked Victor and Landon just that question, and their answers were pretty fascinating.
Vanessa Quirk: What do you say to other developers if they say like, “Oh, dealing with the community, ugh, it’s just more risk for me. It draws out my timelines. Why should I even bother?” What do you say to that kind of developer?
Landon Taylor: We’ve had some development friends and partners who’ve had projects stopped because they didn’t go through that community engagement process. That will make the point that if you don’t take the time to listen to the community, it could end up costing you more from a time perspective. Also, institutional investors, you know, are starting to look carefully at where they’re placing their capital. Do you have some sort of an approach around ESG? So I think that there’s a lot afoot now, and I think it’s those developers who get that and can make it a part of their business strategy. I think that could be a competitive advantage.
Victor MacFarlane: We need people to step up, you know. Yes, they’re going to have to risk some money upfront. We, and the community, are risking money upfront to prove a case, to make something special. So I challenge others to just say, “Take a risk.” Set the amount of money you’re willing to lose. But give it a go.
Vanessa Quirk: Right. Take the risk to be transformative.
Victor MacFarlane: Yes. And feel really good about yourself, and make money at the same time.
Eric Jaffe: It’s truly inspiring what Victor and Landon and the community are doing at Freedom West 2.0. But the financing will be a challenge. Land prices in SF are incredibly high. There’s a lot of upfront capital to risk.
Vanessa Quirk: And not only that, but the inequities there are longstanding, right? This is not something that can be fixed overnight. But Victor and Landon believe that Freedom West 2.0 will empower this community and catalyze multi-generational wealth in the next few decades.
Eric Jaffe: It definitely makes me wonder: what about creating an innovation ecosystem almost from scratch? Could you potentially circumvent some of the mistakes of the past?
Vanessa Quirk: Well, remember how I went to Tulsa at the top of the episode?
Eric Jaffe: I do.
Vanessa Quirk: Well, there’s a group of folks there who I met who are trying to do exactly that. To bake equity into an innovation ecosystem right from the start.
Randy Wiggins: I’ve had a lot of great opportunities in life. This is the first one when my mom said, “I’m proud of you.” I want to do right by her and be right by this community and really Black people across the country.
Vanessa Quirk: That’s pretty powerful, that your Mom said that. That’s really special.
Randy Wiggins: Well, I worked for President Obama. That wasn’t good enough for you?
Vanessa Quirk: That’s Randy Wiggins, the Founding Managing Director of a company called Build in Tulsa. I met Randy outside a barbecue joint in Greenwood, so he could show me around the neighborhood. And as we walked, Randy told me his backstory. He got his start in finance, then moved to the public sector, where he worked for the Obama Administration, and then transitioned to venture capital. When we arrived at the Build in Tulsa HQ, just a few blocks away from historic Greenwood Avenue, he told me more about his company and how it’s creating an innovation ecosystem of Black entrepreneurship in the city.
Randy Wiggins: So we’re bringing in entrepreneurs at every level of their entrepreneurial journey and providing them with first-in-class support.
Vanessa Quirk: To support these entrepreneurs, Build in Tulsa has created three different accelerators, each focused on companies at different stages of their development. And these accelerators provide the knowledge, the mentorship, and the connections to capital that these companies will really need to take off.
Randy Wiggins: We want to build the most Black entrepreneur-centric ecosystem in the country and in the world. And in the same way that people you know want to get to Silicon Valley, if you’re a Black or a BIPOC entrepreneur, you’ll be wanting to get to Tulsa in the same way.
Vanessa Quirk: Unlike San Francisco, Tulsa doesn’t have the benefit of an established innovation ecosystem or an established talent pool. So one of the first steps will be to reverse the brain drain that’s happened in Tulsa since urban renewal and get new start-ups, entrepreneurs, and talented folks to move to Tulsa, just like Randy did.
Eric Jaffe: I mean, as we know from our episode on remote work last season, Tulsa is attracting a lot of new folks these days.
Vanessa Quirk: That’s right! In fact, while I was talking with Randy, he walked me down the hall to introduce me to someone else who had just recently made the move.
Brian Brackeen My name is Brian Brackeen. I’m the general partner of Lightship Capital. Lightship Capital is a $15 million venture fund focused on women and minorities, and one of our headquarters is in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Vanessa Quirk: Brian told me that the story of Tulsa makes it the perfect place to create a new kind of black-centered innovation ecosystem.
Brian Brackeen We are big fans of Tulsa 1920. Right, so when we think about the work we do here, it’s about how do we recreate what was before the race massacre, right? You certainly should never forget the pain of the race massacre, but what are we trying to get back to? What is the goal? That’s what a vibrant, thriving North Tulsa is.
Vanessa Quirk: And so what, what brought you to Tulsa apart from Randy’s good convincing here?
Brian Brackeen Yeah. Randy’s fine looks. No, hmm, we took a tour in 2019 called the Comeback Cities Tour. It was co-sponsored by Bloomberg and some others.
Vanessa Quirk: I think I read about that. It was like a VC-type thing to different cities around the quote unquote heartland.
Brian Brackeen Exactly. Get coastal VCs to come to visit heartland locations to see what’s really going on. And so when we got here, it was literally the nicest people, the kindest people we’d ever met anywhere. People talked openly about the race massacre and what they were trying to do in casual conversation. They’d really normalized in a way they live it. And then three, the quote unquote powers that be were very focused on doing whatever they had to do, whether it be financially or through just their own voice, to help us to fix things. So I come for the tour. I stay for life, right? I think that’s a common refrain in Tulsa.
Vanessa Quirk: But, after attracting outside talent and keeping Tulsa-born talent, and helping their businesses and start-ups to succeed, the next challenge for Randy will be to create a place. When I asked Randy what this future Black Wall Street might look like, he took me out of the office. We walked north, past the stores and restaurants of Greenwood Avenue. And towards the loud and rumbling highway that divided and destroyed this neighborhood decades ago.
Randy Wiggins: This is something that I hope, you know, 10 years from now will not be here.
Vanessa Quirk: Right, because before the highway was here, this was all Greenwood! This was all —
Randy Wiggins: This was all Greenwood.
Vanessa Quirk: On the other side of the highway, there were mostly empty fields with tall grasses. Apart from the hum of the highway, you could hear the crickets making their music and industrial trains passing by in the distance. And Randy walked me toward a field with a fence; there was an old decaying factory beyond it.
Randy Wiggins: So this is Evans Fintube. This is an 11-acre parcel, which has a 120,000-square-foot factory on it. When I came here, I said, “One of the things that we need to have, we’re going to be competitive, is our own campus.” The expectation is for housing. The expectation is for restaurants. So how do we build this into really a modern-day, all-purpose factory that produces successful entrepreneurs but that also produces economic growth and also produces racial and economic justice?
Vanessa Quirk: To do that, they’re starting preliminary conversations with the community. And two of the themes that already have come up are ownership and inclusion.
Randy Wiggins: We know what we desire to have is something that will be owned if not in part then in its entirety or in some form or fashion by the community. We think that’s right. And I think inclusiveness, right? Often I think people in the community say, you know, we just want to make sure that we’re being thought about, considered, and engaged.
Eric Jaffe: Is it possible to imagine that the Freedom West model could be applied here?
Vanessa Quirk: Yeah! Or maybe even a neighborhood REIT or a Community Investment Trust, right? But it’s still too early to know what they’ll land on. Randy is currently looking for a developer who will be willing to work with them to make sure that the community benefits from the wealth that is generated here. So they can create a more equitable innovation ecosystem — one that prioritizes Black prosperity for the long term.
Vanessa Quirk: So that Greenwood can rise, once again.
Randy Wiggins: Let’s be completely honest. This is not compared to the acres and acres of property destroyed in the Tulsa Race Massacre. But this is a start. And I think from this can come beautiful things. So it’s not much to look at right now, but it’s what it represents in the future. To me, that is so beautiful and so inspiring.
Eric Jaffe: Thank you for listening to City of the Future, a podcast from Sidewalk Labs. Your hosts are Vanessa Quirk and me, Eric Jaffe. A big thanks to all the guests who made this episode possible: Phil Armstrong, Trey Thaxton, Landon Taylor, Victor MacFarlane, Randy Wiggins, and Brian Brackeen.
Vanessa Quirk: Thank you to Alison Novak, Jesse Shapins, and Chrystal Dean from Sidewalk’s development team. Thanks to our producer Guglielmo Mattioli, our advisor Benjamen Walker, and our mixer Andrew Callaway.
Eric Jaffe: Story editing by Rough Cut Collective. Our music is by Adaam James Levin Areddy of Lost Amsterdam. Our social media and transcripts are by JamiLee Hoglind. And our art is by the great Tim Kau. We’ll see you in the future.
Vanessa Quirk: Bye!